16 Apr 2021 11:54:20
Reply to rk lower down.
I don`t think you are getting it rk.
We are not suggesting for one minute about putting 6 youngster in the side all together.
We are saying there are probably 6 players close to consideration for game minutes.
one here one there, not all at once, nobody has said that.
All Villa fans I know seem to think along the same lines, so there is some feeling behind this.
16 Apr 2021 12:18:23
Dave I agree there are more than a few that should be given a chance of game time and definitely not all at once and probably not for a full 90 minutes. I strongly think if Deano does not do it now with a free hit, he is highly unlikely to do it any time soon at the start of next season when the pressure will be on for a good start and it certainly won't be the right time to experiment with kids, especially if recent form and performances are anything to go by.
16 Apr 2021 12:31:59
No, you're not getting it.
If there are 6 players good enough to play in the prem playing together in an u23 side then that side should be doing more than they are.
1 player can't carry a whole team to the top but I'd expect over half a team of prem ready players to easily be in the top 2 or 3 of that division.
Nowhere did I suggest they should all be in a prem game at the same time.
16 Apr 2021 13:40:42
I don’t think it would be a melting pot of expectation between now and the end of the season though.
I see your point regarding a mixed season in the u23 league rk, but even if there are 4 or 5 outstanding players if the rest aren’t up to scratch, that will be reflected in the results and league position. There are 5 players, Barry, Chukwuemeka, Ramsey (A), Philogene Bidace and Hayden, who have been consistently outstanding throughout this season. They haven’t always been available as a group for the matches though, which will have an influence on the results.
By all accounts the Leeds team which sits on top of the table has much greater strength in depth and isn’t necessarily a team containing outstanding individuals.
It will certainly be interesting tonight when our lads face Leeds as all 5 mentioned above should be available to play.
It may well be the case that all 5 aren’t ready for regular first team exposure, but one or two of them might be.
There really is only one way to find out and that’s to give them the opportunity. Europe hopes have been extinguished, risk of relegation is no longer an issue, and there are no supporters to express their displeasure, therefore the pressure is as minimal as it’s going to get.
If ever there was a good time to give them their baptisms it’s surely now.
Other clubs would also be very interested to see how they fare, and not only would it give them ideal preparation for loan deals next season, but it could mean they’re loaned out to better clubs. It would put them in the shop window if you like.
I have to say this topic has generated a lot of debate and opinion appears to be very much divided. No doubt the debate will continue after tonight’s game against Leeds.
16 Apr 2021 14:21:03
That's my point mark. Either we're overegging too many players instead of focusing on one or 2 or they are all nearly but not quite there and need that little more time to grow (which is where BK and I are coming from) .
You've given 5 but I've also seen Kessler and Bridge pushed for bench places a lot making 7 not counting Rowe or Revan who are fairly decent also. I'd say 7 should consistently carry those who are off it if they are Prem level.
We also have Swinkels and Chrisene (Chrisene even had first team minutes at Exeter) who were touted as the best of young players around and they barely start for the 18s.
Nobody in the other teams above us is getting exposure at their clubs and there's another whole division above that.
They are good players and should be pushed to make the step up but there's evidence from results and the coaching staff that the time is not yet right at least for most of them.
16 Apr 2021 14:46:23
Kessler is Hayden mate.
Not sure Bridge is quite in that category either from what I’ve seen and read. No, I think there are currently 5 genuine candidates for exposure.
Obviously not all at once and perhaps for 15 to 20 minutes maximum for the time being, as Dave, Scotty, Moose and others have also suggested.
I think it would be fair to give them an opportunity now, just to try and judge if any of them could step up to the plate in the very near future.
16 Apr 2021 15:26:09
rk, do you realise Mark and myself agree on this topic.
Your agreeing with Mark, yet disagreeing with me, don`t get it.
Scotty, cheers mate, I have assessed our stand on this, and I have
come to the conclusion that we the fans who pay, should accept playing standards, leave youngsters to stagnate in the academies, and leave them to wonder when their chance will come, if at all.
Summary:-
So what is progress: The concept of progress implies directional change toward a better state or condition.
That is enough for me.
16 Apr 2021 16:04:15
Where did I agree with Mark? You're making a bad habit of not actually reading what has been written and making an argument out of what you've made up in your own head.
"That's my point" followed up by further explanation is just reiterating where I'm coming from, it's not an agreement.
While we are all realists about our European chances the club aren't going to treat it as nothing to play for while we're still close mathematically. They'll know that an unlikely run like the start of the season could get us there so until its out of reach they won't drastically move off course.
16 Apr 2021 16:41:15
Great debate lads - Have to align with RK here, I don't think the rest of the season is a free hit for Villa and I will be seriously annoyed if the players view it as such. Like we can't criticise Barkley or another player for strolling around the pitch on one hand and then call for the under 18s to play because we are on the beach and nothing to play for with the other.
My key takeaway from this conversation is we have a hugely exciting academy and our fans are desperate to see them develop and progress into the first team. What we disagree on is how that should happen? For me we have the foundations of a really good team coming through the ranks, there is absolutely no harm in them being nurtured for a few more seasons, Villa will only benefit from this patience and we could see the likes of Kessler, Barry, Ramsey, Chukwuemeka etc all coming through at the same in a few years time.
16 Apr 2021 18:08:11
BK Nurtued for a few more seasons, means not given a chance, why, because we will spend tens of millions on so called proven players and when you do this the manager is boxed in to a corner to play them at the exclusion of young unproven talent. When we talk of a free hit, it is giving young talent the opportunity to show what they have without promotion or relegation pressure. I just wonder what would have happened if Rooney, Bellingham, Owen, Foden and as far back as Trevor Francis would have had to wait and see and nurture them and miss out on the natural talent, exuberance of youth. Don't try anything and you will get nothing to measure success from.
16 Apr 2021 18:50:21
Absolutely Scotty, bang on mate, I am struggling to understand the logic behind this "lets wait and see" mentality.
Like I have said, I am glad its not my son playing under such a restricted system.
16 Apr 2021 19:02:27
It's "not wait and see" Dave, it's being strategic and integrating our youth when they are ready (see Jacob Ramsey, 19). The players we are taking about are Barry (17), Ramsey (18), Chukwuemeka (17) and Kessler (18) and they are kids, I don't get the logic behind pushing them to the first team when they are playing weekly for our U23s and will most likely get a loan next season.
Cafu,
16 Apr 2021 19:07:45
Cafu, I get that there are examples of where young players were drafted into the first team and flourished but for every Rooney there is 50 young players who don't make the grade and their career fizzles out - Bypassing the U23s and potential loan moves may not have the desired effect, I'd rather be patient ensure they are drafted into the first team only when 100% ready then roll the dice and promote them now.
16 Apr 2021 19:16:47
Great debate fellas as always. I definitely think blooding the youngsters is the way to go but I would like to see maybe two or three given some minutes before the end of the season and for me the three would be Barry, Chukwumeka and Philogene-Bidace With regards to the remainder of the youngsters I think we should look to loan them out to lower league clubs like Walsall for example and see how they progress, because if as is being suggested we spend big again in the summer transfer window then the likelihood is the kids won’t get anywhere near the first team next season and for me playing lower league football has got to be a better finishing school for young footballers than U23 football.
16 Apr 2021 19:18:10
I'm personally not suggesting many years, just that they need to show a level that proves they are ready either by doing more where they are or doing it elsewhere temporarily.
If it was just a focus on a single player like Barry then I'd be all for it during games that are already won or lost but there's currently no evidence other than highlight reels that number of players are ready for first team minutes in rotation.
It might take some longer than others but considering the rarity of 17/ 18 year olds who consistently affect first team games I find it hard to believe we suddenly have 5 at once who will take us into Europe and beyond. Take the best one and let the others prove themselves with the right direction, be that through being more demanding on results with the u23 or letting them play first team football at a middle level (preferably not League 2 or Conference as not enough of a step up for me when they could at least train with the first team) .
16 Apr 2021 19:48:45
Who is the best one rk, you only get any idea of who that is, by giving each one some game time.
Otherwise its just another personal opinion.
16 Apr 2021 20:13:29
That's the coaches job, no? They see them almost every day and what they have done when training with the first team.
Sharing around the small amount of game time is no help to any of them as there's no chance to form any understanding with the senior pros. Pushing one, maybe 2 to the very top is much more beneficial than getting several to a good Championship level by rushing it. The rest still get their chance within a couple of years if they keep working hard and improving.
Barry is the most likely due to Watkins versatility and our lack of numbers in that area. While not world beaters we have enough wingers fighting for the RWF position that Jack doesn't play to make it slightly less of a priority.
16 Apr 2021 21:11:45
Gotta agree with Cafu’s 1st post in this thread, think of it another way there’s that thing ‘you’ll never win anything with kids’ if I remember rightly that was 1st said after we beat Man U 1st game of the season, Savos and a few others debuts, weren’t Beckham and that crop of players on the losing side to Villa, but then went on to win the Prem that year, don’t think their confidence took too much of a knock? Another thing to think about that it would be better to throw some of the kids in while there’s no fans there too
UTV.
16 Apr 2021 21:57:18
Guys we can all agree to disagree, my position is and will continue to be, what we are doing at the moment clearly isn't working, sugar coat it, make allowances, be happy with were we are, trying something else when there is absolutely nothing to lose in my humble opinion is a no brainer.
16 Apr 2021 21:58:26
How many "promising " young players have we held back, be it loans,1st team exposure etc over the years, to only end up letting them go when they've not done anything of significance by the time they reach their early 20s? Its time for a completely different tack now as to date its not really worked out. The owners realise this, hence the academy revamp. Some may end up being discarded anyway but hopefully after they've had a chance to show, at a competitive level, whether they can make the grade or not. For too long we've held players back from getting a proper taste of "mens" football to keep them in the old u21s where they just stagnate or regress. 10 minutes here and there, for the outstanding ones, in the 1st team isn't going to ruin them and may just surprise a few people and make any promising talent within the area think " hey, if I go to the villa, I've got a real shot of eventually getting in the 1st team ". That sort of situation is priceless for the long term future of the team. Remember fortune favours the brave.